Men's attitudes to sexual harassment
Jun. 12th, 2009 11:30 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
Lots of people have been posting about this recently, with good reason. However, everyone I've seen posting recommendations has been either female or transmale, so here goes.
cereta has been hosting a discussion about rape and men's attitudes to it. I'm not going to attempt to summarize or quote; read it.
khalinche tells her own stories, and asks: where are you? Where are the Nice Guys who Aren't Like That when women need them?
wildeabandon asks for shared stories - go fill in the poll/.
This is not an exhaustive list.
In comments to
khalinche's post, she asks why straight cis-men aren't commenting much. Since I'm rather curious too, here's a poll.
NB: "participation" means reading at least one post I linked above, preferably all of them, posting at least one comment, and sticking around to read any followups. Less than that is either "listening" (good-ish) or "driveby" (bad).
If you haven't seen any of these posts linked to yet, read them then fill in the poll! There is no onus on you to participate immediately. Considered reflection is good. You have no obligation to participate at all, but it would be a Good Thing to do.
"I", of course, means the person filling in the poll.
"My friends" means male friends, specifically. I am not interested in female sexism here. Nor is anyone else.
[Poll #1414756]
![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
This is not an exhaustive list.
In comments to
![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
NB: "participation" means reading at least one post I linked above, preferably all of them, posting at least one comment, and sticking around to read any followups. Less than that is either "listening" (good-ish) or "driveby" (bad).
If you haven't seen any of these posts linked to yet, read them then fill in the poll! There is no onus on you to participate immediately. Considered reflection is good. You have no obligation to participate at all, but it would be a Good Thing to do.
"I", of course, means the person filling in the poll.
"My friends" means male friends, specifically. I am not interested in female sexism here. Nor is anyone else.
[Poll #1414756]
no subject
Date: 2009-06-12 11:34 am (UTC)*hands up* I am (but not here, it's a completely different discussion).
ETA: your final questions are missing "No - about the same as I am"
no subject
Date: 2009-06-12 11:40 am (UTC)And whilst I'd be very interested to read that discussion, it's one I really, really didn't want to have here and now!
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Date: 2009-06-12 11:48 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-06-12 03:06 pm (UTC)I'm not trying to sabotage you here, by the way! I vaguely considered writing a poll for the post I'm planning to write later (which will engage with female sexism, by the way, though that's not quite what I'll be calling it, I'm trying to move away from the more aggressive name-calling model I'm seeing floating around), but I don't think I could get one together that would be anywhere near watertight on this topic. Possibly one about "Which of these terms do you identify with: non-sexist, feminist, egalitarian" etc., divided by gender, but I don't have enough men reading my LJ to be worth putting it up there, plus it's difficult to get all the different gender/orientation options in.
Generally I'd say that my friends and I have roughly similar views on sexism, and that we're a pretty non-sexist bunch, particularly compared to the rest of the population. Attitudes towards gender equality are something that I try to sniff out very early on when meeting someone, and I am unlikely to make or remain friends with someone sexist (/racist/homophobic/prejudiced against people with disabilities). Sexism tends to be one of the easier ones to spot. At a crude level, I am extremely unlikely to warm to someone who is standing around making sexist jokes and talking to my breasts. I wonder if women are more likely than men to select opposite-gender friends this way, since women are more likely to be bothered by sexist behaviour in men, and more alert to the possibility of it, than vice versa?
no subject
Date: 2009-06-12 11:42 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-06-12 11:46 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-06-12 11:44 am (UTC)Sorry for my lack of terminology.
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Date: 2009-06-12 11:47 am (UTC)I'd say the first of those, in context.
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Date: 2009-06-12 11:48 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-06-12 12:30 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-06-12 12:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-06-12 12:37 pm (UTC)I know a lot of men who talk about how bad men are at multitasking - i.e. childcare and housework - and I think it's totally sexist even though it's generalising about men and, on the face of it, favouring women.
no subject
Date: 2009-06-12 12:39 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-06-12 12:41 pm (UTC)In any case, to explain my voting at least - I think my male friends are sometimes sexist and I don't really know how to exclude "female sexism" from that as I think it's all part and parcel of the same thing.
no subject
Date: 2009-06-12 11:46 am (UTC)It's not necessarily the right thing to do, but it does tend to be what I do.
Graham
no subject
Date: 2009-06-12 11:58 am (UTC)Also, a lot of the time I just don't have the time to comment - I'm too busy reading all the really interesting things other people have said. Because there are more than twenty pages of interesting comments on
no subject
Date: 2009-06-12 11:49 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-06-12 11:51 am (UTC)"My", by extension, means their friends.
no subject
Date: 2009-06-12 12:10 pm (UTC)Actually, it might be worth clarifying that in the preamble. I answered it that way, but then wondered about it afterwards.
I was a bit hesitant about saying that my friends are more sexist than me. I think it's true on average, although I also have male friends who are less sexist than me. I'm still only just becoming aware of what male privilege I have, and feeling my way through it a bit.
no subject
Date: 2009-06-12 12:15 pm (UTC)That question's never going to be an easy one to answer, but then I wasn't really interested in asking easy questions. I'm not completely sure how useful averages are in this sort of thing, since the extremes always tend to be more prominent and more influential.
no subject
Date: 2009-06-12 12:08 pm (UTC)The sexism question is tricky. Whilst I wouldn't consider myself to be so (and certainly consider myself to be vastly less so than the men I know of my parents' generation), I have little doubt that I am at some point, and worse, that I'm not aware of so being. The same very much applies to racism.
On the topic of sexual assault, the problem is clearly not that all men are potential rapists. It's that a sufficient proportion of men are rapists, that the rational response of any potential victim is to act as if all men are potential rapists at all times. And given the severity of the consequences of rape, the requisite proportion is likely vanishingly small, and certainly much smaller than the true proportion of rapists in the male population.
That said, I suspect that (human beings being notably irrational where risk is concerned) the actual response is to treat all strange men as potential rapists. Given that, as with child abuse and murder, rape-by-strangers is probably vastly rarer than rape-by-acquaintances, this may not be the most effective response.
(The preceding has undoubtedly lent significant weight to the "ill-informed" judgement with which I began.)
no subject
Date: 2009-06-12 12:11 pm (UTC)I've had somewhere between half a dozen and a dozen female friends talk to me about suffering child abuse or rape. Given the strong underreporting that's doubtless involved, that's a lot of people.
And not one of them was talking about a stranger.
no subject
Date: 2009-06-12 01:30 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-06-12 02:47 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-06-12 02:02 pm (UTC)I disagree. All people are potential rapists. Everyone has to be careful about consent, especially in situations where you have more power than the person you're with.
no subject
Date: 2009-06-12 02:51 pm (UTC)What I was trying to get at is the existence of two related problems. The first is, obviously, the occurrence of rape. The second is the fear thereby induced, and the effects that this fear has upon the mental and physical health of women, and upon their freedom of choice and action.
My thought was to question whether it might be possible to address the latter even in spite of our lamentable (current and almost inevitably future) failure to address the former, given the harm that such fear does both to society and to women's potential to live fulfilled lives within said society.
Then again, this point is probably coloured by the more general problem of fear of crime massively outstripping its incidence. Given the horrific under-reporting of rape, it is probably one of the few crimes where this mismatch does not exist.
no subject
Date: 2009-06-12 02:26 pm (UTC)I'm going to try to write a post over the next day or so about the significant proportion thing.
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Date: 2009-06-12 01:34 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-06-12 01:44 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-06-12 02:38 pm (UTC)1. Her readership is disproportionately female. (I have no idea, I don't know her, but I know that this is true of my readership.)
2. Women are more likely to refer their friends to read the post since they feel more urgently concerned by it.
3. Some men won't respond because they are the ones we're all complaining about, who treat women as sexual objects they're entitled to paw at. Which is probably a good thing for everyone's comfort, and avoids unnecessary flame wars with sexist idiots, but it does mean that we're not getting the overall picture.
4. Some men won't respond because they are worried that they'll get jumped on and accused of being sexist, and/or are not sure how it would be appropriate for them to respond, and/or feel that the post is primarily in the "safe space for women" category and it's not their place to speak up.
5. Women are more affected by this problem as victims than men are, more likely to worry about it, more likely to feel passionately about it, and less likely to zone out when seeing it come up.
I wonder where the best place would be to post something like this in order to get a good response from non-sexist men as well as women? Probably a community dedicated to discussing egalitarianism etc. with an even balance of male and female participants. If anyone knows of one, point me to it!
If and when I get around to posting about this myself, may I link to your post as well?
no subject
Date: 2009-06-12 05:16 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-06-12 05:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-06-13 06:07 pm (UTC)My son was upset to discover that not everyone shares his view of the world: he can't imagine people behaving the way that
The other... is a highly intelligent student friend, who is generally lovely, someone I feel safe with, and who I thought would almost certainly be one of Those Guys. I'd been out for dinner earlier, and the context of my mentioning the article was an apology on my part for things I'd said which I later realised could be misinterpreted -- reading
His reaction (to reading it) was not one I'd expected: he was angry because (he said) he has lots of stories of being That Guy. I explained that I've been sexually assaulted more than once, and he told me that I'm the exception, and that doesn't really happen much. (Also that drunk girls go to parties to have sex with people and boast about it afterwards.) We had a very heated discussion for an hour or more; I think he still believes that actually, most men are entirely honourable and women are unreasonable in being afraid. I rather despair, if that's the enlightened end of the spectrum :-(
no subject
Date: 2009-06-13 09:54 pm (UTC)The other... mm, it's always a real shock to find out someone who's otherwise lovely has something unpleasant about them.
"Most men are entirely honourable; most women are wrong; I know this because I'm a man" - I don't understand how this can be a convincing argument for anyone. I'm wondering, though, if it ties into something
no subject
Date: 2009-06-13 11:12 pm (UTC)Actually, I say "the first of", but that's not even accurate. "The first of the more major and frightening of my recent" would be more accurate, because the more minor and pervasive stuff (like getting groped on the Tube, probably more often than not if I'm travelling in the rush hour) just gets filtered out unless I actually think about it hard. And somehow I have childhood abuse filed in some entirely separate category; I'm not sure why.
no subject
Date: 2009-06-13 11:28 pm (UTC)It's sad, and offensive, and enraging that the trauma is so common and so gendered. And I hope very much that your daughters can resist it.
no subject
Date: 2009-06-15 10:31 pm (UTC)In a way, though, I don't think it matters that the stories being told are coming largely from the women; or it's even better, since many of the stories are so sincerely praising remembered acts of kindness from That Guy. As long as there are guys out there reading, I guess, that's the kicker--hopefully there are guys reading the thread and seeing how these acts are being remembered with tremendous, almost shameful gratitude, long, long after the fact.
It's possible to be a hero in someone's life with such simple, decent acts. Kinda heartbreaking, really. Such an incredible discussion.
no subject
Date: 2009-06-12 04:36 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-06-12 05:10 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-06-12 05:28 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-06-12 05:31 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-06-12 10:44 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-06-14 07:19 am (UTC)Others may put this better than I, but...
Date: 2009-06-14 09:56 am (UTC):-)
Re: Others may put this better than I, but...
Date: 2009-06-15 07:44 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-06-15 07:59 am (UTC)For a long time I've made the mistake of assuming that rape is a very rare occurrence. I've tried to analyse why and come up with the following. When I first began to hear about rapes on the news I started with the thought that “this was a monstrous act”. This very easily became “The man who did this was a monster”. Then as the thought percolated away in the back of my brain it became associated with the idea that “monsters are rare”. “I mean they must be. I'm not a monster. None of my friends are monsters”. I can see how this would lead to a totally unrealistic view of reality. For me anyway. All I can add is a big thank you to cereta, khalinche, wildeabandon and all the many others for posting.