Posh gits and (upper-)class heroes

[mirrorshard]

The very rich are not like you and I.
No, they have more money.

Yes, this is a post about Boris Johnson. Feel free to skip.

A lot of the Boris-criticism-criticism I've been seeing lately can be more or less summed up as "don't hate him for being a posh Tory prat". After all, we wouldn't dream of saying that someone wasn't qualified for an elected position because they were too working-class, right?

The problem with that is that the two aren't equivalent. Because our Mayor has always been rich, he's always been privileged and insulated - he's been surrounded by other people of his own class, race, and wealth level to a greater extent than any council-estate hoodie, first at private school and then at Oxbridge. He's never been forced to work at something he didn't want to do, never run the risk of homelessness or bad credit, never had to live hand to mouth. (To the best of my knowledge, at least. I may be wrong about that. If so, please correct me.)

The fact that he went to Eton depresses me more than the Oxford education - after all, many people manage to get through Oxford without being ruined. (And I should stress that this isn't linked to party affiliation. At the moment, they're all posh gits.) But he was a member of the Bullingdon Club, like Cameron, there. For those of you not familiar with the term, they're a bunch of yobs who dress up in penguin costumes and go out to smash up restaurants.

So, like David Cameron (notorious for surrounding himself with others of his own background) he has a far smaller range of people he can identify with, empathise with, and relate to than someone like Ken Livingstone with a more rounded education and socialization. I'm not trying to say he can't, or that he has no interest in it - just that being a posh toff brings with it a lot of disadvantages when it comes to relating to ordinary people, and posh toffs are statistically much more likely to be out of touch with ordinary people than the rest of us are.

What I'd like to see - though there are more than a few problems with the idea - is a rule that nobody can stand for public office unless they've spent at least six months on Government benefits in the past.

Comments

[friend-of-tofu.livejournal.com]

I've spent quite some time on benefits, and I come from a middle-income background and have a degree and 2 post-grad qualifications. Almost everyone I grew up with, and most of them weren't really poor (many of them went to some sort of private school) has spent at least a few weeks on benefits, mostly more. Most of them are in reasonably well-paid jobs now, but that doesn't mean they didn't all really need the benefits at the time.

[malvino.livejournal.com]

Good for you. I never went on benefits, I did crappy temping jobs for peanuts instead.

[friend-of-tofu.livejournal.com]

I actually did both at one point: I was earning so little at my 30+ hours a week job that I qualified. One of my friends was STILL earning so little at his retail job last year (at the age of 28) that he was getting housing benefit, despite often working a 6 day week.

I was over the moon when the minimum wage came in, as you can imagine.

My point was not to gain some kind of spurious prestige by mentioning that I and most of the people I know have been on benefits at some point - I'm not expecting a pat on the back - but to point out that it's actually pretty damn ordinary, and it's very likely that a *large* number of people in this country are or have been relying on benefits at some point. Including many people who are not typically regarded as benefit claimant material.

[malvino.livejournal.com]

Most people have children and get married, maybe even in the other order. Why not say people who have stayed childless and single are unable to identify and therfoer should not be allowed to stand?

[friend-of-tofu.livejournal.com]

You appear not to be seeing the difference between trying to understand something one doesn't have direct personal experience of and not caring to try. I don't have kids and am presently unlikely to, however, I quite like children and think I have an OK knowledge of how to interact with them (I generally get on well with them). That's quite different to, say, hating children and finding them unnerving. In the former case, I think it'd be absolutely fine for me to want to work with the children; it might not be a very good idea if the latter was the case.

I'm not suggesting people should be prevented from political office if they lack certain qualifications/life experiences, but I think it's quite valid to suggest that a person who appears to have no interest in understanding what life is like for the majority of their electorate is probably not best qualified for the job.

[malvino.livejournal.com]

I see the difference. I am not talking about Boris, I agree he does not care to and is a waste of privilege who nobody in their right mind would have voted for. You may not be suggesting that people be prevented from political office based on a lack of experience in what you consider a particularly relevent area, but mirrorshard did, and it was him I replied to. If you're not disagreeing with me, then why are you replying to me saying I don't see something?

[friend-of-tofu.livejournal.com]

I agreed with his suggestion about a 6 months spell on benefits. That would not be preventing someone taking up their role, because they could spend the first 6 months of it accessing and utilising benefits services. As a nicer option, I suggested the minimum wage concept instead, which is much kinder.

[malvino.livejournal.com]

Right, then, why are benefits so important? Driving and congestion is a key issue, would you exclude anyone who does not have a licence?

[mirrorshard.livejournal.com]

Can't speak for friend_of_tofu, but to me at least being poor - having had the experience of being poor - is not like other things. It's a combination of helplessness, social stigma, and exclusion that has knock-on effects on almost everything else.

[malvino.livejournal.com]

They say the same about having children, life changing experience by all accounts.

[friend-of-tofu.livejournal.com]

Presumably having children while being poor is a double-whammy, then!

So if you accept that, why not accept that it is a big deal and it does matter?

[malvino.livejournal.com]

It's a big deal, I never said it wasn't.

[friend-of-tofu.livejournal.com]

But it's pretty closely linked with wealth, wouldn't you say?

Let's not pretend that poverty isn't used to criticise people's parental abilities...

[malvino.livejournal.com]

Sure, poverty is linked to wealth, of course it is. Is it linked to inherited wealth or the lack of it? Yes, but it has a much closer link to education.

Poverty may be used to criticise all sorts of things, that doesn't mean those critiisms are valid. I, personally, would not like to see any government making policy based on invalid criticisms or incorrect observations.

[friend-of-tofu.livejournal.com]

Is it linked to inherited wealth or the lack of it? Yes, but it has a much closer link to education.

But quality of education has a very close link with parental wealth too, and that has increased over the last 20 years due to the removal of provisions for students in higher education.

I, personally, would not like to see any government making policy based on invalid criticisms or incorrect observations.

You must have terrible difficulty when it comes to voting, then! ;¬) Not that I'm saying I don't agree with you - on this point, I whole-heartedly do.

[malvino.livejournal.com]

So inherited wealth ties in to quality of education eh? In which case you're saying that you'd prefer lesser educated people to be in positions of power?

I disagree on both counts.

[friend-of-tofu.livejournal.com]

So inherited wealth ties in to quality of education eh? In which case you're saying that you'd prefer lesser educated people to be in positions of power?

I said nothing of the sort. What I *would* prefer is for education to be equally and realistically available to everyone, which it presently is not. Are you genuinely denying that there is a strong link between family wealth and quality of education? If so, you amaze me.

To take your point seriously for a moment, though - education alone is not the only or even the best measure of capability to do a job, especially a job like holding a public office. I am more interested in a person's competence than in their holding of qualifications which are unrelated to the post. Competence includes the ability to understand the needs and concerns of the people you're working for.

John Major is probably a very good example of a relatively less-well-educated politician and public office holder (though he was still better educated than many, despite much of his education being practical rather than academic), but I don't believe his education 20 years previously (or lack thereof) was a central aspect of his ability to run the country. While I won't pretend that I agreed with many of his policies, I still think he was a perfectly competent politician and Prime Minister.

[friend-of-tofu.livejournal.com]

The other way round, maybe! ;¬)

Seriously though, there are a variety of reasons why people might not drive, and not all of them are related to poverty - living close to good transport, being walking distance from work, environmental reasons, medical reasons, just not liking it, etc. Poverty is only one of them (and a more obvious issue in the US than here).

But the only damn reason for anyone to be on benefits is because they NEED THE MONEY. So people on benefits are automatically poor by at least some definitions - they're poor enough to submit themselves to the brain-shattering mystery that is the benefits system (and it's getting worse all the time). Therefore, benefits use *is* a clear measure of a certain kind of social grouping, and I would argue that it indicates a social group most desperately in need of attention and support. Any decent representative of the people therefore ought to make some effort, at the very least, to acquaint themselves with the merest shadow of a whisper of an idea of what it's all about.

[malvino.livejournal.com]

I still don't see why poverty is more important than other issues the mayor has to deal with. Many would say that ethnic minorities comprise a certain kind of social grouping that is desperately in need of attention and support, likewise parents and others mentioned before. You've not answered the question, just said that those on benefits are important, which isn't something I'm questioning.

However, I disagee that you can only have the "merest shadow of a whisper of an idea" about somthing if you have experienced it. Best policy if that is the case is to close down schools and universities right now and save a buttload of cash. Even so, the merest shadow could be gained by visiting those in poverty or working with them for a while, no? Meaning that you appear to be agreeing with me, it is possible to know about it without experiencing it for yourself and therfore people should not be prejudged because they were born wealthy.

[friend-of-tofu.livejournal.com]

Many would say that ethnic minorities comprise a certain kind of social grouping that is desperately in need of attention and support

Agreed. And often that is because they are disproportionately poor.

Poverty ain't the only issue but it DOES have a disproportionately huge impact on people's lives compared to almost any other negative element, not least because other things that cause people difficulty (eg race, gender presentation, disability) are made even worse when those people are poor as well, and often that one of the biggest problems is that people who populate social groups with particular pressing problems are often members of social groups very likely to be poor too.

Poverty is not just 'another issue', because it's so massive a problem.

However, I disagee that you can only have the "merest shadow of a whisper of an idea" about somthing if you have experienced it.

Did I imply that?? Whoops.

the merest shadow could be gained by visiting those in poverty or working with them for a while, no?

I didn't say it wasn't possible (although there is a FUCKING MASSIVE difference between observing and experiencing - poverty tourism is less lovely, go ahead and insert pretty much any quote from "Common People" that you like), but many people with that privilege really don't do it. And I think people should aim for far more than the "merest shadow".

people should not be prejudged because they were born wealthy.

Indeed. Tony Benn is one of my heroes. It's all about how people recognise and deal with their privilege, if they do at all. Let's just say that most people born wealthy are NOT Tony Benn!

[malvino.livejournal.com]

So we're back to "if you're not disagreeing with me", why are you replying telling me I don't get it?

[friend-of-tofu.livejournal.com]

I'm disagreeing with the specifics of what you're saying, and the approach, not necessarily with every word you're typing. That should be obvious!

[malvino.livejournal.com]

What specifically are you disagreeing with? You agree that a lack of direct experience of poverty such as having been on benefits should be no bar to office, I haven't offered any further opinion to be specific about or disagree with other than that there are other social issues that have importance (which is something I think it is imposible to argue against).

[friend-of-tofu.livejournal.com]

You agree that a lack of direct experience of poverty such as having been on benefits should be no bar to office

I didn't quite say that. I did say I supported the idea that a person who had never been on benefits could spend their first 6 months in office experiencing benefits claims. I didn't say it should be an AUTOMATIC bar, but that provision ought to be made for office holders to educate themselves. Because the above would be difficult, I suggested minimum wage for office holders as a better alternative, and one which would be a more accurate reflection of the reality of life for low earners anyway (because most people on benefits don't have a long and demanding job to keep them distracted).

My concern is that most of your responses seem to be suggesting that privilege is a neutral state which people can't help having and which they don't really need to examine, and it's very unreasonable to expect them to.

Have you ever seen the cartoon "But I've Never Benefitted from Racism!"?

[malvino.livejournal.com]

"My concern is that most of your responses seem to be suggesting that privilege is a neutral state which people can't help having and which they don't really need to examine, and it's very unreasonable to expect them to."

What have I said that gives you that impression? It is certainly not something I agree with, and yes, I have seen the cartoon. I think I was pretty clear, I think that far from it being unreasonable to think they should examine this, it is actually appalling that someone (Boris in this case) would make no effort to find out about others' situations and so to waste the privilege they were born with.

I said all this way up there: "I am not talking about Boris, I agree he does not care to and is a waste of privilege who nobody in their right mind would have voted for." in reply to you saying "I think it's quite valid to suggest that a person who appears to have no interest in understanding what life is like for the majority of their electorate is probably not best qualified for the job."

Again, if you don't disagree with what I said, then why did you reply to me telling me I didn't see things? If you've persuaded yourself that I hold some position that you disagree with, and you want to argue that point, I'm not going to play along, mostly because as far as I can tell we don't disagree and I certainly do not hold the views you think I do.