Convention models & accessibility

[mirrorshard]

Something the Bicon accommodation flap (which I don't propose to comment on here) brought to mind is the constellation of assumptions involved and decisions made.

A couple of examples to establish the field, first - all of these are long weekends (Thursday or Friday to Sunday or Monday). The costs are the lowest prebooking prices I can recall or get hold of.

Bicon: university campus. Single rooms with the opportunity for self-catering, £100 or £175 for ensuite.

LRP main event: Scout campsite. Camping with catering vans, shower blocks, and the opportunity for all the self-catering you can do without burning anything down, £60.

Eastercon: Mid-range hotel. Single, double, and twin rooms, all en-suite, no self-catering. £40 a night (based on sharing a twin/double room) for three nights, plus £50 convention membership, makes £170.

Basically, all of these have things about them that are deal-breakers for some people, and organisers always have to choose between them. Well, in principle - in practice they often default to one or another model that they're used to and comfortable with.

In the campus model, it's the combination of small tatty student rooms, possible lack of en-suite bathrooms, and tiny shared kitchens. On the other hand, you've got small-group community and cheapness. This model works well for a relatively young & healthy community, who generally know each other already; less well for older people and positively hostile to families.

Camping is a deal-breaker for a great many people, though I love it. It's something you need to have a fair amount of practice at, and prepare for in advance, and it works better if you do it as a family or an organised group. It can be positively hostile to the disabled, and sometimes to those with food issues.

Hotels are my favourite overall, and it's possible to drive the cost down further. The conference facilities are not always up to what a university can give you, but that varies a lot between hotels. They're generally better at comfort, commodiousness, and responsiveness to needs than university campuses are, but they can also be quite a bit worse in terms of allergens and pathogens. On the other hand, you're limited food-wise to the hotel restaurants (which are generally sub-standard and over-priced unless it's a very, very good hotel, in which case they're just over-priced) or whatever's within any distance you're comfortable staying away from the con for.

I've doubtless left out some factors, so all comments and contributions welcome.

Comments

[mirabehn.livejournal.com]

This could well be a stupid suggestion, but are there ever conference facilities (or things that could be used as them) onsite somewhere there are static caravans? They would seem to have some of the advantages of camping without the basic "camping" element of them. And you're guaranteed at least a semi-functional cooker-with-hobs and sink between 4-6 people.

[valkyriekaren.livejournal.com]

No, those sorts of things don't really exist. And having a lockable door (rather than being in a 'dorm' type environment) is a hard need for lots of people in terms of safety and security of their belongings.

[mirabehn.livejournal.com]

No, those sorts of things don't really exist.

That's clearly a gap in the market! Static caravans are wonderful budget accommodation and I could see something like that working.

I do remember playing at the Eastbourne folk festival more than once and staying in a static caravan there, but the venue was a long walk or even a drive away, which is no good for this. :-(

And having a lockable door (rather than being in a 'dorm' type environment) is a hard need for lots of people in terms of safety and security of their belongings.

Hmmm that is a very good point. Obviously the caravans themselves are lockable, but they're not as secure as a solid building, and people would be reliant on finding another 3-5 people to share their caravan whom they absolutely trusted.

The only other idea I can think of is hotels which have conference facilities and also a caravan park attached, thus at least giving people the choice of caravanning or hotelling. Are there any of those? Or is that breaking the business/leisure genre divide so much that a hotel with a caravan park will just by definition not have conference facilities?

Interesting overview, but...

[valkyriekaren.livejournal.com]

I would point out that Eastercon is significantly bigger in terms of attendees than BiCon.* This means it can block-book a mid-range hotel and therefore get considerable discounts on accommodation.

Not all hotels are comfortable with holding a convention focussed around sexuality - literary and SF cons are generally more socially acceptable. Some universities also have a problem with this but can usually be talked around.

Disability and health issues crop up again in a hotel situation - some people cannot manage to eat at set times, or have very specific dietary needs which the hotel may not be able or willing to meet. This is why most people prefer self-catering.

*(I can't find any data on this on the EasterCon site but I'd expect that there were considerably upwards of 700 attendees, though obviously not all stayed in the hotel(s) - in contrast the average Bicon is around 200 people)

Re: Interesting overview, but...

[bob]

wasnt it over a thousand this year.

Re: Interesting overview, but...

[mirrorshard.livejournal.com]

Hm, very good point, especially the Bicon numbers - I'd been trying to guess it, and had settled on 350 +- 50, which I obviously got wrong, but would be above the whole-hotel threshold. 200, indeed, would be a bit low for that.

[caramel-betty.livejournal.com]

This could well be a stupid suggestion, but are there ever conference facilities (or things that could be used as them) onsite somewhere there are static caravans?

In the past, it's been possible to do such things at Butlins-type holiday camps. e.g. various of the UK Gen Con (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gen_Con) events in the mid 90s were held at Pontin's holiday camp in Camber Sands. Gen Con UK 2004 was at Butlin's in Minehead.

At many such places, you get a mix of static caravans and/or chalets suitable for a reasonable number of people. You might also get hold of ballrooms, discos, restaurants, kids' clubs and the like to run different events and facilities.

However:

• I have no idea how many of these places are still around - people don't holiday in Britain as much anymore, and I imagine many have gone out of business


• to hire a whole place out of season would require a lot of advance planning and many people coming to make it cost effective


• most of these places are in seaside resorts, which aren't necessarily widely accessible for people coming from across the country or abroad


• a seaside resort out of season may not be the most sparkling of places for people who want to duck out from the convention for a bit, for a slap-up meal or whatever, and many not have useful shops nearby.

And you'll get comments/requests/moans from people because something isn't right or available because no place is going to be perfect.

Re: Interesting overview, but...

[the-alchemist.livejournal.com]

Not all hotels are comfortable with holding a convention focussed around sexuality.

I'm pretty sure that under the Sexual Orientation Regulations 2007, their 'comfort levels' are irrelevant: they have a legal obligation not to discriminate on grounds of sexual orientation. This is certainly the case with hotels which host weddings but refuse to do civil partnerships, or who try to refuse double rooms to gay couples.


Disability and health issues crop up again in a hotel situation - some people cannot manage to eat at set times, or have very specific dietary needs which the hotel may not be able or willing to meet.

I tend to get around this by carrying a toaster around with me to hotels and so on, and/or packing food I can eat which only requires you to add water. It's far from ideal, but it just about works.

I've never yet come across a hotel that isn't willing to meet even very complicated sets of dietary needs at their lunchtimes or dinnertimes, although they do occasionally screw up.

Re: Interesting overview, but...

[mirrorshard.livejournal.com]

I've never yet come across a hotel that isn't willing to meet even very complicated sets of dietary needs at their lunchtimes or dinnertimes

This is the basic problem with food at hotels, for me - I'm always going to need food outside specific mealtimes, and especially late at night after sensible people stop serving. It's dealable-with, but takes preparation, as I know you're familiar with.

Re: Interesting overview, but...

[caramel-betty.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure that under the Sexual Orientation Regulations 2007, their 'comfort levels' are irrelevant: they have a legal obligation not to discriminate on grounds of sexual orientation.

Comfort levels may be irrelevant, but there's a difference between a venue enthusiastically helping you have a great weekend and a venue grudgingly letting you have use of the facilities.

Re: Interesting overview, but...

[valkyriekaren.livejournal.com]

It's dealable-with, but takes preparation

Of course, this is true with a lot of the usual quibbles!

Historically hotels haven't been an option simply because they're too expensive. As well as higher accommodation costs, they also tend to charge a lot more for the conference suites themselves. SF conventions etc can get extra revenue to cover that through things like dealers' rooms, sponsorship of programmes/website by publishers, celebrity auctions and so on, which is something BiCon simply can't. I'd be really interested to see the accounts of an EasterCon and do a critical comparison with the accounts of a recent BiCon, actually.

Re: Interesting overview, but...

[valkyriekaren.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure that under the Sexual Orientation Regulations 2007, their 'comfort levels' are irrelevant: they have a legal obligation not to discriminate on grounds of sexual orientation. This is certainly the case with hotels which host weddings but refuse to do civil partnerships, or who try to refuse double rooms to gay couples.

That's as may be, but they can certainly say things like 'no nudity in the conference rooms' or 'no fetishwear', which would put a crimp on some people's fun. (Bear in mind that I'm speaking historically about why hotels were problematic - so from before those regulations came in, and I'm aware that this issue needs revisiting).

Re: Interesting overview, but...

[valkyriekaren.livejournal.com]

As I said, I couldn't find the figures on the EasterCon site. I can see that the Edwardian has around 500 rooms in total of which just over 300 are standard double/twin rooms. With one or two people to a room, BiCon would probably only be able to book half of the standard rooms at most, and vanishingly few of the family or luxury suites.

Re: Interesting overview, but...

[mirrorshard.livejournal.com]

Mm, I see what you mean, but that assumes that the demographic will be the same. Obviously, I can't prove that there are a noticeable number of people who'd come along if the situation changed (or that they noticeably outweigh the number of people who wouldn't) but I do feel we'd get more families booking in a situation like that.

Re: Interesting overview, but...

[valkyriekaren.livejournal.com]

True, but it's a big gamble to take with the community's money, and the organisers would need to prove to the venue that they could pull in the numbers to block-book the rooms.

I'd love to talk to someone who was around for the early days of SF cons and ask how they moved from university venues to hotels - what was the tipping point? Personally I can see the hotel option being viable if BiCon were regularly pulling in 350+ people who all wanted to stay onsite (as opposed to day registrations), and if there were vendors/organisations who were willing to rent stall space to promote their products or services and thereby offset the additional cost of the conference venue itself, which for a hotel is generally much higher than for a university, for an equivalent level of facilities.

Update: Having looked at the Eastercon page on Wikipedia, 2008 pulled in over 1300 people. At £50 a pop for full weekend registration, that's £65,000 to be spent on the conference centre, guests, publicity materials and other overheads. The middle band of registration for BiCon this year is £40 (may not represent the average paid) - for 250 people that works out at £10,000. That's your differential right there. A major SF con (even discounting things like vendors rooms, sponsorship etc) have an income over six times of a BiCon.

Re: Interesting overview, but...

[mirrorshard.livejournal.com]

Goodness, yes, that's quite some differential indeed.

Re: Interesting overview, but...

[alextiefling.livejournal.com]

I've never yet come across a hotel that isn't willing to meet even very complicated sets of dietary needs at their lunchtimes or dinnertimes, although they do occasionally screw up.
Willing, perhaps. Able, no. At a union conference in Torquay, for which friend_of_tofu and I were in a pre-booked hotel, and where we had given proper dietary notice three months in advance, we still got the wrong things, up to and including breakfast delivered to our room which contained sausages and bacon. (We're both vegetarian.) In the end, we ate out whenever possible, and told the union not to pay that portion of our bill.

[alextiefling.livejournal.com]

I was at Gen Con 2004. I never want to spend three and a half working days in a draughty marquee again, even if it can be provided without the rain (indoors) and the alternating smells of fuel oil and toilets.

On the other hand, Conception, held annually at Holburne Naish, Highcliffe, Dorset, is more on the scale of BiCon, does accessibility reasonably well (there is at least one wheelchair-enabled chalet, for example; I've stayed in it), and might prove a better model.

[alextiefling.livejournal.com]

Hotels can be very costly. When I was at Origins 2005 in Columbus, OH - a huge event, where block bookings should really bring prices down - I stayed in a con-approved hotel. It cost me something like three or four times as much for a room of the same size and quality as it had done a week previously in Las Vegas.

Re: Interesting overview, but...

[caramel-betty.livejournal.com]

I do feel we'd get more families booking in a situation like that.

You'd probably need a little more than a hotel for that. However, you might well be able to accompany such a move with extra facilities like a creche. Those cost real money, however.

A secondary problem can be that with size comes a change in dynamic. e.g. at 80 people, an event is small enough that you can see everyone easily. At 200 people, you're still small enough to have community spirit, but you may have groups/cliques whatever forming. (I don't mean that judgmentally.) At 500 people, lots of people won't know each other or probably see each other. This may lose you some of the people who were enthusiastic about the 80-200 band, which can be a shame.

This can have a knock-on effect to bookings and the usage of your rooms, however. e.g. better facilities and more people in a bigger place may mean that parent+parent+(+parent?)+newborn feel able to come along. However, the extra freedom means they might decide to only come for the Saturday night, rather than coming for the whole event (say, Thursday-Sunday, just going from the current BiCon thread). You might well find yourself with a fair chunk of rooms that are only partly occupied, which may prove awkward for working out your room rates.

An important factor would be to poll people long in advance about the principle of the thing, and try to avoid doing it somewhere that comments will be public. (e.g. threads on LiveJournal would be bad for it.) You want an environment where people can feel free to say what they really want, rather than what they think their friends want them to say. A decent, well-written poll promoted by various different people (who are key to different friendship circles/cliques/demographics) might work.

[caramel-betty.livejournal.com]

Oh, yes, Gen Con have a history of being randomly crap at doing various things (yet still letting people have a good time). I remember one event I helped run at one of the Loughborough Gen Cons where we were shifted to a science lab because the University randomly changed their mind on facilities, and another where the only slot they'd give us was midnight till dawn (and in a tent). Matt, a friend who ran the midnight one, brought along ProPlus.

Use of large tents is usually entirely bad.

[alextiefling.livejournal.com]

Loughborough was its own kind of special. It certainly gave me a feeling for what campus universities are like - not having been to one myself.

At present, though, the most important thing about GenCon is that it clashes with BiCon! :-(

[caramel-betty.livejournal.com]

Perhaps WizardsTSRHasbro hate bisexual people? Or maybe bisexual people hate role-players, card game freaks, and wargamers? Hmm hmm.

If you can work out which, we can organize a protest march. It may not be effective, but we can rest safe in the knowledge that it's been carefully planned on a hex map.

(If a policeman strikes you with a truncheon, do you get an attack of opportunity?)